Thinking About Spotify, Exclusivity, Call Her Daddy, and Joe Rogan

Hours Categories Content, News

Spotify has made a couple of big announcements in the past week:

First, their second-biggest show, Call Her Daddy, ended exclusively rights1. While the show will still be a Spotify show, it will be widely distributed (though video will still be exclusive to Spotify).

Then, over the weekend, the same thing is happened with The Joe Rogan Experience (JRE). It will soon be available on other platforms, after being completely exclusive to Spotify for the past 3+ years.

JRE’s renewal was also apparently a massive deal monetarily2. It’s got me thinking a lot about podcasting and what’s in store for us.

Exclusivity is a Risk, Even for Giant Podcasts

Here’s what Ariel Shapiro said in her Hot Pod newsletter before the Rogan deal was announced (emphasis mine):

If Rogan goes, it would really be the final death knell for Spotify’s exclusivity experiment. It did work for Spotify in some ways. By snatching up the top podcasts and studios at the time, it lured podcast listeners away from Apple and forged new ones. And even now that it has fallen behind YouTube, it is still a go-to destination for podcasting.

I tend to agree with this analysis. When Spotify started doing exclusive deals, I more or less boycotted those shows — though perhaps boycott is a strong word. I, personally, feel podcasting is one of the few truly open mediums left, especially in 2018-2020. Plus, I listen to all of my podcasts in a single app, Overcast.

I even endure ads on Wondery shows in Overcast, even though I can get those ad-free in the Amazon Music app as a Prime member.

But it’s no secret that these moves did bring people to the platform. Spotify, one of the top 3 podcast apps, and it was eating Apple’s lunch for a while shortly after Rogan became exclusive.

So why this change? Well, there’s something else Shapiro points out:

But as Spotify fights for higher margins, it seems it has more to gain from getting the ad dollars that come from wider distribution than whatever less tangible platform benefit comes from exclusivity.

The main benefit of these shows being exclusive — bringing people to their platform — doesn’t outweigh the benefits of being everywhere and getting ad dollars. Especially since Spotify also owns Megaphone, one of the biggest dynamic ad platforms.

What does that mean for smaller podcasters like us?

The risk/reward of exclusivity is not worth it. If Spotify, one of the top 3 podcast apps, didn’t feel it worked for JRE or Call Her Daddy, then it surely won’t work for most others — not in the “all episodes are exclusive” sense, anyway.

Exclusivity Didn’t Work for YouTube Either

We actually saw the same lesson play out with YouTube Red. They brought some of the biggest YouTubers, like Rhett and Link, in to create YouTube Red-exclusive content…but they ended up scrapping that because it wasn’t worth the investment.

That content is now available to all users.

When I first saw Tom Webster speak back in 2018, he discussed the importance of being where your listeners listen. I’m still really, really bullish on that…and it seems Spotify had learned the same lesson (JRE was big on YouTube, and the clips still get millions of views).

Speaking of Tom Webster and Joe Rogan…

The Spotify deal has also reignited discussions about why Joe Rogan is so popular. Tom Webster had, easily, the best analysis in a now deleted Thread:

I want you to think about WHY Rogan is popular. It isn’t because he’s a celebrity. Feeding people bugs on a reality show isn’t enough to make you good at podcasting. Rogan is popular because he is good at what we are supposed to be good at in podcasting: knowing your audience.

…When I see Rogan’s audience, I see a group of disenfranchised, young (mostly) men, who do not feel completely in control of the narrative of their own lives, and cannot shake the feeling that the system is rigged against them, because older guys like me continue to hang on to our jobs and aren’t sharing in the American dream with them.

…Rogan exposes them to the information they believe society keeps hidden so that they can make their own decisions. They don’t want conspiracy for the sake of conspiracy – they want a sense of agency in their own lives.

If you read the comments — an activity I generally don’t recommend — you’ll see hate directed at Webster because the commenters don’t like what he’s saying. Strong how can you say anything good about this person I so deeply hate vibes.

But not liking Joe Rogan doesn’t make Tom Webster wrong.

And don’t get me wrong — I don’t like Rogan, either. I thought his whole schtick about calling out comedians who steal jokes was lame and gimmicky3, and in my opinion, he’s only gotten worse.

Joe Rogan’s resume before (and during) his podcast was:

  1. Mediocre stand-up comedian
  2. Host of Fear Factor
  3. UFC announcer
  4. Minor TV and Movie roles

None of these things make you the top podcasters. In fact, the second most popular podcast on Spotify at the time of this writing, New Heights with Jason and Travis Kelce, is probably only there because of Taylor Swift, the most popular person in the world right now.

But again, what does this mean for us?

Here’s how Webster ends his thread:

This is the work. I’ve worked with literally some of the biggest shows in the world in radio and podcasting and this is the work. Narrow focus on HUMANS.

I mentioned that I have a problem with Rogan’s popularity. It’s not that his show is so popular. It’s that show number two isn’t even close. It’s that there is SUCH a wide gap between Rogan’s show and the rest of the field. It’s that he is such an outlier. All because he has found an audience that needs a home, and he gave them a home.

Please do the work

You don’t need to sell out your values, or push things you (probably) know aren’t true, or say things because that’s what people want to hear.

But you do need to find your audience. Don’t focus on money, or growth, or anything else. Serve human beings.

And do everything possible to reach them wherever they consume content.

  1. It’s already number one on Apple’s Comedy charts, and number two overall. ↩
  2. It was originally reported around $250M, but Spotify has claimed that’s not true. ↩
  3. Though, I guess it’s proof that he was dedicated to the truth at some point in his career. ↩

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Joe Casabona

Podcast Systems Coach

Joe Casabona is a podcast and automation coach who helps coaches, course creators, and authors grow their podcasts into authority-building lead generators. He does that through expert-tested systems that come with 10 years experience podcasting, 15 years teaching, and over 20 years working the web.

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  • Cut Your Production Process in Half with Solo Episodes

    Hours Categories Content, Tips, Workflows

    I’ve noticed a trend over the last week or so — I’ve been talking to more people who’ve been either interested, or intrigued, by the idea of doing solo podcast episodes.

    First, there was my coaching call with Alex, where we discussed how to more efficiently do solo episodes.

    Then I was talking to a fellow creator who surveyed her audience. She was surprised to see that they actually preferred the solo episodes to the interviews.

    I understand why there might be trepidation for people who haven’t done them.

    “No one wants to listen to me talk that long.”

    “I can’t talk about something for 20 minutes straight.”

    “It’s going to be boring.”

    “It feels weird.”

    But the truth is there are a TON of benefits to doing solo episodes.

    1. They are much easier to produce
    2. The focus is on you, which builds your authority
    3. You can batch them so you never fall behind on your podcast
    4. They can be shorter, which can improve completion rates
    5. You control the entire narrative

    I’ve written about a lot of the benefits of a solo show here, but today I really want to focus on the process improvements.

    You Don’t Need to fill 30 Minutes

    For a long time, in the United States, a 30-minute TV show slot would require 22–24 minutes of content, intro included. This leaves room for 3 commercial breaks.

    They had to fill that time, or more likely cut down to that time…which is why intros from the 1970s are dramatically longer than intro in the 2000s.

    Streaming alleviates that requirement for TV — but we’ve never had that requirement for a podcast episode.

    I think many podcasters worry that they need to make an episode of a certain length. But that’s not true.

    If it only takes you 10 minutes to discuss something, then release a 10-minute episode.

    If you go super deep on a topic and have a valuable 45 minutes, then do that.

    There’s no golden length to any episodes. Let the topic dictate the length.

    If you are looking for a litmus test for length, I like to borrow Troy Dean’s metric for his courses: “How can I get the student/viewer/listener from Zero to Win?”

    Think about where your listener is before the episode, and where you want to get them by the end of the episode. What’s one action they can take to get them there?

    As an aside, I don’t think interviews need to be 60 minutes, either. I’d actually argue that shorter interviews are better — but that’s a topic for a different newsletter.

    Time-Saving Process Improvements

    So if you are doing a solo episode, what exactly are you doing to save time?

    I’m going to assume you edit your show because I know you that you know need to edit.

    There are a few tasks we can immediately throw out:

    1. Guest research
    2. Guest outreach and scheduling
    3. Any pre-interview or pre-production information, including technical difficulties
    4. Downloading and combining/cleaning up the audio
    5. Cutting tangents

    These will get replaced with one item:

    1. Outline or Script

    How to Create a Fat Outline

    I’ve also written at length about this topic, but I think it comes down to one key question: are you speaking on a topic you’re an expert in, or are you telling a story?

    If you’re telling a story — like a fiction story or deeply researched piece of journalism — you probably want to script.

    But if you’re speaking on a topic you’re an expert in, an outline (or a “fat” outline) is sufficient.

    Here’s how I create the fat outlines for my solo episodes:

    1. Create the outline, following the 3-Act structure
    2. Under each act, fill in a couple of bullet points to make sure I hit the most important beats.
    3. Under certain bullets, add a couple of sentences expanding upon what I have in mind — these are sentences I can read verbatim, or paraphrase, but they provide a bit more structure for me to help listeners get from Zero to Win

    Because I’m picking a topic I’m an expert in (or some behind the scenes thing for my business), Just having the cues to go deeper on an area is enough.

    What About Production/Post Production?

    Once you have your fat outline, or script, it’s time to record! I like to record my solo episode in Ecamm Live because I have nice layouts, in-case I release the video.

    When you mess up, clap into the mic, and keep recording. You can easily cut things later in Descript, or have your editor look for the long, skinny lines on the wave file.

    The considerable time-saving benefit here is that you don’t need to level and combine audio, or hunt down the places where you need to cut/edit the guest.

    In-fact, sometimes I don’t even send solo episodes to my editor. I record, put the audio through Logic Pro (I have some presets to clean up the audio), then cut the sections that need cutting, and upload.

    And since they’re shorter, more focused, there’s inherently less audio to scrub through anyway!

    Batching Content

    The last big benefit of solo episodes is that you can batch a couple right in a row so you have them.

    With summer chaos, I’ve had some guests cancel or reschedule, or I’ve had to reschedule.

    In those instances, solo episode saved me. Instead of scrambling to find a new guest, I’m able to record a solo episode I’ve been sitting on, or pull one from one of my back catalog.

    Your Next Steps

    OK, so how am I getting you from Zero to Win in this newsletter?

    Think about a topic you can do solo. Something you’re working on, or a question you got from your listeners.

    Then make a fat outline and record it.

    You don’t need to edit yet — just see how it feels. The more you do solo episodes, the more comfortable you’ll get.

    And you, like my creator friend from earlier, might find that your audience prefers them.

  • RSS.com’s Big Guide on Launching a Podcast

    Hours Categories News

    I had the pleasure of contributing many words and video to RSS.com’s Thinking of Starting a Podcast? Here Are 7 Things to Know. We cover a ton of ground.

    Here’s a small excerpt:

    Podcasting can be as intimidating as public speaking, if not more so. Unlike public speaking, you can’t see your audience and how they are reacting to what you are saying.

    Starting out, you won’t know how your topic will be received, whether people will be interested and listen, or if there are mistakes in your approach – this is why preparation is crucial.

    In this post, podcast coach and podcasting expert Joe Casabona gives you his best tips on choosing the perfect name for your new show, securing the right domain, generating compelling episode ideas, and creating eye-catching artwork that stands out.

    Check out the entire guide — it’s pretty great if I do say so myself!

  • Why You Should Start a Short, Solo Podcast

    Hours Categories Content

    Have you ever wanted to start a podcast about your area of expertise, but you were scared off by all the time and effort required to make it? I’d like to introduce you to my friend, mini podcasting. 

    Mini podcasts are short — typically 20 minutes or under. The short duration appeals to both you as the host and to your listeners who are short on time. In that span, you can drop all of your knowledge on a given topic, educating your audience and showing off your smarts at the same time. 

    I cover the factors that make a mini podcast successful and attainable on an episode of Make Money Podcasting. Here are some of the key takeaways from the episode:

    • Mini podcasts are less daunting for the host. They prevent the dreaded “pod fade,” where you start a podcast with good intentions but can’t maintain staying power and trail off.
    • Making a mini podcast is easier than you think. With a sharp mission statement, laser-focused topics, and batched episodes on a schedule, production is a breeze.
    • You don’t need two-hour episodes to make money podcasting. Sponsors are just as interested in reaching your audience via shorter content. With a mini podcast, you can drive new traffic to your mailing list or draw new paid gigs.

    So how do you get started? And more importantly, why should a mini podcast be part of your marketing strategy? I break it down for you into bite-sized pieces.

    Reasons why you need a mini podcast

    Your podcast doesn’t have to be long to be valuable. Let’s talk through some of the big wins of starting a short podcast.

    Your mini podcast's edit won't look like this.

    Short podcast = less editing

    A long-form interview show seems to be the most common kind of podcast out there. But is it always the best? 

    You have to prep your questions for a longer conversation and allow extra time for editing all the content. Inevitably, a guest might not be as concise as you need them to be, so you’ll spend a lot of time editing out irrelevant sidebars or “ums” and “ahs.”

    With mini podcasting, you alone are the host and the guest. I want you to get on the mic, talk about your given topic for 20 minutes or less, and save the rest of the content for the next episode. 

    Now, let’s address pod fade. 

    You start a podcast. You’ve got an idea of what you want to talk about, how often, and when you’ll record. But then, things don’t exactly go according to plan. As with many new habits, the podcast falls to the wayside with other projects moving to the forefront. 

    With mini podcasting, you can seriously diminish the risk of pod fade. If you follow my guide here, you’ll be well on your way to creating and monetizing meaningful content for your followers. 

    🎙 Top tip: I like to use Descript to edit my mini podcast episodes. The editing tools are easy to use and lend themselves well to solo shows. 

    Showcase your expertise

    On a mini podcast, it’s just you on the mic talking about the things that you know best. What does that make you? A thought leader in your subject area. 

    I’ve talked in the past about how providing helpful content builds an audience and deepens their trust in you as an authority. That’s exactly what a mini podcast is: a way for you to show what you know. 

    If 20 minutes sounds like an overwhelming amount of time, keep it simple. Pick your topic, outline what you know about it, turn on your mic, and let ‘er rip. You’d be surprised how much time you can fill when you get going on something you know well.

    Episode batching is simple

    With interview-style podcasts, batching is a tall order. Maintaining the emotional stamina to truly engage with your guests if you’re recording multiple episodes back-to-back in a single day is challenging. Even for an extrovert, that’s a lot of time to spend socializing. 

    I once tried to batch five podcast episodes with guests, and I can say with confidence that the quality tanked somewhere between the second and fifth interviews.

    Not so with mini podcasts. You’re the host and the guest, and the time is so short that within a couple of hours, you could record several episodes of your podcast. That’s much easier to build into your schedule than hours of prep, recording, and editing for a standard-length podcast. 

    Short content is hot right now

    Some of my favorite podcasts are multiple hours in length. But that doesn’t mean I always have the listening time to spare.

    Let’s face it: Attention spans are short. TikTok and other social media apps have conditioned people to enjoy snippets of information rather than long lectures. Even for longer videos on the apps, the maximum length clocks in around three to 10 minutes.

    A short time commitment gives your listeners the chance to fit your content into their lives. A short podcast could be the length of folding a load of laundry, a commute to the office, or a daily walk. Giving your audience a chance to hear you out quickly makes your message more likely to be heard. 

    How to make a mini podcast

    Now that I’ve convinced you why you need to make a mini podcast, let’s dive into how to make it happen.

    1. Start with a mission statement

    You can’t start down a new road without a map. (Well, you can, but you’re more likely to get lost — and lose your following along the way.)

    A clear mission statement for your podcast will give clarity to what you want to accomplish with your show. I covered more about this on an episode of Make Money Podcasting. It comes down to three main questions:

    • Who are you serving?
    • What problem are you solving for them?
    • How do you solve that problem?

    2. Pick your topics

    Dig deep into your knowledge bank. What do you know best? Come up with 20-25 topics that you could cover in under 20 minutes. Break them into smaller chunks as necessary. 

    Still stumped on how to file down the focus of your mini podcast? Check out my thoughts on this subject on an episode of Make Money Podcasting. 

    3. Record 3-4 episodes at a time

    Mini podcasting is all about batching! Organizing your time this way makes it easier to tear through content quickly while still keeping the quality high.

    If you’re ready to talk for 20 minutes on your given topic, go for it! Otherwise, I recommend shooting for 12-15 minutes of content to start. You can edit from there.

    4. Release episodes on a schedule

    A good cadence for releasing episodes is bi-weekly or weekly. Anything less might leave listeners wondering where you went, assuming they lost you to pod fade. 

    Even more importantly, sponsors won’t be interested in an inconsistent show. 

    If you’re recording three to four episodes in a batch session per month, that’s plenty of content to get you through that timeframe. And it will keep your audience coming back for more, excited for what you have to offer next. 

    How to monetize a mini podcast

    Once you’ve landed on the topics and process for your mini podcast, it’s time to start monetizing. Here’s how to make money with your shorter show.

    Have a clear call to action

    You’ve got listeners. They’re here for the free, helpful, and short content you’re giving out. But they also think you’re smart and feel a connection to you. Why not close that loop with a clear call to action?

    At a minimum, that can look like getting them to sign up for your mailing list. But don’t stop there if you have more content ready for the market. That could be a course, a book, a product, or a workshop. 

    It can also be helpful for the services or products you offer to have an “impulse buy” price point. If your call to action is for them to buy your book, $9.99 is a good price in that accessible range.

    Your audience trusts you. You have products and services to offer them. Don’t be afraid to ask them what you really want to ask them! 

    Find a sponsor that aligns with your content

    You might think that you need hours of content or a huge audience to attract a sponsor. But that’s just not true. 

    Go back to your podcast mission statement, and think about what kinds of sponsors might be trying to reach your audience. 

    Just because the content is short doesn’t mean the sponsor doesn’t want access to your listeners. In fact, your mini podcast might be an even better fit for your sponsor. Listeners won’t have to wade through lengthy content to get to the ad breaks — meaning they hear about the sponsor quicker. 

    🎙 Top tip: I recently had Alexis Grant as a guest on How I Built It to discuss how niche content brings laser focus to what kinds of sponsors to seek. If you want more guidance on how to make that niche content, you can find more on this topic here. 

    Funnel your audience to paid gigs

    Just as the call the action should be clear and simple, your audience also might be interested in hiring you to share your expertise elsewhere through speaking engagements or podcast appearances. 

    Invite your listeners to reach out on your contact form to continue the conversation and engage with your topics. Again, joining your mailing list can be a great way to stay in touch if they don’t have specific feedback now. 

    Keeping the lines of communication open will open the door to more chances for you to get paid for your expertise — and a whole new world of opportunities. 

  • Does an Old School Blog Still Work?

    Hours Categories Content, Experiments

    That’s the bet I’m making. A theme of How I Built It for the last few months is the fact that social media (especially Twitter) hasn’t been a productive avenue for promoting your work.

    NY Times columnist ​Jane Coaston put it perfectly​ on The Bulwark podcast last week:

    Twitter has been gamified to such an extent [that] so much of it is…you have a blue checkmark verification and all [the] stuff you’re saying is stuff to drive engagement so people yell at you and you make money.

    🧑‍🍳💋🤌

    Because of this, I decided to invest in more long form writing. ​Jay Clouse’s talk on Sawdust​ at Craft + Commerce last year helped this decision. But crucially, I’m not even bothering taking the long form stuff and turning it into short form.

    I’m fully focused on long form.

    The main move here is turning Podcast Workflows from a weekly article into a more regularly-published blog. There’s no set schedule per say, but my goal is:

    1. 2 articles (700-2000 words)
    2. 1-2 external links to share

    I’m also moving any non-personal writing over to Podcast Workflows from both Casabona.org and Podcast Liftoff.

    This is the primary source for all of my podcast-related writing.

    The big questions I’m working through now:

    1. Making sure I keep the SEO-juice for some of my most popular posts (like the Stream Deck post and my Sony a6400 post).
    2. What to do with my YouTube presence (and how that fits into my overall content strategy)
    3. How moving posts will affect the overall SEO on the other sites. For example, Podcast Liftoff ranks #2 for “Podcast coaching). I’d like to make sure that page still ranks really well.

    I trust I’m 1 consulting call away from all of the answers.

    There’s one more aspect to my strategy, outside of sharing everything I know and hoping the SEO gods smile upon me.

    The biggest benefit of social media and most other platforms is algorithmic discovery and recommendations. No matter what, you just don’t get that on your own site.

    So I will (on a time delay) publish longer articles to both Substack and Medium.

    What do you think? Is this a good strategy? Are my opinions of social media misguided? Let me know!

  • 5 Content Ideas for Your Podcast

    Hours Categories Content

    Your business is stagnating. Maybe sales are as high as you’d like. Maybe you can’t seem to attract more customers.

    Have you had that feeling? that no matter what you do, your sales and mailing list, and income, are flatlining? You know something needs to change, but you don’t know what.

    I know what that feels like. I’ve been there. As I prepared to leave my full time job, I had a false sense of security for how much work I thought would come in. Boy was I wrong. I ripped through my small amount of work quickly.

    Do what you set out to do

    You didn’t start a business to struggle or worry about money. if you’re like me, you wanted freedom. But when you’re struggling in your business, it doesn’t feel like freedom. You feel chained to your desk, hoping more work comes in.

    It doesn’t have to feel like that. And with a podcast, it won’t. Launching a podcast will help you establish yourself as an authority in your field, reaching a new audience, and generate more leads…

    …with the right content.

    Get 40+ Automations for FREE!

    One of my clients asked how I run 3 podcasts with 3 kids at home. The answer: my automations. And for a limited time, you can get access to the entire database. That’s over 40 automations for Zapier, Make, Shortcuts, and more.

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    5 Content Ideas

    Here are some general ideas you can take – while I originally wrote this in the context of podcasting, you can use them for your blog, YouTube channel, live stream, or anything else you can think of!

    1. Interviews

    Interviewing experts in your field, as well as people that are relatable to your audience, can help you expand your network, reach new audiences, and establish yourself as an influencer in your field.

    Some of My Favorite Interviews

    2. Round Ups / Lists

    Picking a topic and listing tools, tips, and resources gives your audience actionable tasks that they can start implementing the day the episode comes out. Stating your own recommendations can also generate more questions, allowing you to engage with your audience!

    Examples:

    • 5 ways to launch your online course
    • 7 tips for building a landing page
    • 9 creative ways to keep kids entertained on a rainy day

    3. Tutorial / In-Depth Advice

    Pick a topic and go deep on it. Tell listeners every step they need to take to do something, whether it’s how to set up a WordPress site, or how to cut your own hair. Show listeners you know everything there is to know about a topic.

    And perhaps most importantly, give them a quick win. You want your listeners to try what you advise and be successful – not be frustrated.

    4. Customer / Client Spotlight

    Listeners love content they can relate to. If you can pick a customer or client and highlight how they’ve been able to improve using your product or service, that will be great content for you.

    Be sure to make the episode about the client, and the audience, and not about you. And most importantly, let the guest do the talking!

    5. Behind the Scenes

    People love peaking behind the curtain, so a behind the scenes episode is great content. Show your listeners how you built a product, service, or process. Be detailed about it! It will prove that you think through your problems to find good solutions.

    You can also combine this with number 4 and do a case study. Just be sure to get your client’s consent.

    Bonus: Flip the Script

    My most popular episode of all time is an episode where my friend Jeff Large interviewed me about how I created the podcast, to commemorate 100 episodes of the show.

    This combines several different episode types: behind the scenes, interview, and in- depth advice. Listeners really seemed to love that episode and they’ll love yours too! You get to flex a little, and since your audience is also invested in your story, it will provide great insights for them.

    You Can Do It!

    Your business depends on growth. Stagnation means lost revenue and lost opportunities. The world is constantly changing, and if you don’t change with it, you won’t be in business for much longer.

    Luckily, you’ve already taken steps to make the changes you need to make. With a podcast (or blog or YouTube channel), you can release unique and captivating content, reach a new audience, help people, and generate leads.

    You podcast can do for you what my podcast has done for me.

  • I was on the Profits Through Podcasting Podcast

    Hours Categories Content, Storytelling

    My editor, Joel, has launched a new show called Profits Through Podcasting, where he shows people how to turn listeners into paying customers.

    I had the pleasure of going on the show and we talk all about systems, putting the right amount of effort into your show, and more.

    Listen to the episode

    Here’s a little preview:

Join the Discussion