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  • I was on the Profits Through Podcasting Podcast

    My editor, Joel, has launched a new show called Profits Through Podcasting, where he shows people how to turn listeners into paying customers.

    I had the pleasure of going on the show and we talk all about systems, putting the right amount of effort into your show, and more.

    Listen to the episode

    Here’s a little preview:

  • The Digital Storytelling Aspect of Podcasting

    A family walks into a talent agency, and says, “Have we got the act for you…”

    If you’re familiar with this opening to a joke, you may have had a visceral reaction to it — either you think it’s hysterically funny, shamefully disgusting, or both.

    It’s the opening to the joke, The Aristocrats, and if you have a weak stomach, I don’t suggest you look it up.

    See, the point of this joke isn’t actually the punchline, which is right in the title. The point is to see how long you can improv a shocking, disgusting, offensive story.

    You can think about it as a secret handshake among comedians, that became not so secret after a 2005 documentary came out about it.

    It got me thinking about the importance of telling a story.

    This week, I got to speak to my friend Nick Benson’s college classes about Digital Storytelling.

    Don’t worry, I didn’t tell The Aristocrats.

    Instead, I spoke to them about why storytelling is so important in any content you create, especially podcasting. I say especially because up until this point, the vast majority of podcasts haven’t integrated storytelling in some way.

    They’ve been back-and-forth interviews, emulating more of a late night host than a movie or TV show1.

    And while there are popular podcasts shows that don’t weave storytelling into the fabric of the content, most of them do. Look at Lore, American Storytellers, and Serial. They all tell a compelling story.

    If you’re trying to differentiate in today’s world — the world where everything is vying for your attention — you can’t just have a conversation (unless you happen to be a Super Bowl winning Tight End dating the world’s most popular pop star and American royalty). You need to tell a good story.

    So where do you start?

    Just a quick level-set here: I’m talking about non-fiction, information-focused podcasts here. The interviews or solo shows where you’re teaching or doing knowledge transfer. I suspect I don’t need to convince podcasts that already tell a story to…well…tell a story.

    How to Tell a Good Story

    My friend Mike Pacchione is a public speaking coach, and knows the power of telling a good story. He knows you need to hook your listeners, then take them on a journey in your talk.

    This doesn’t have to be an epic story. It just needs a beginning (a hook), a middle (some conflict), and some conclusion— even if it’s a cliffhanger.

    Many stories actually follow a very similar format.

    The Hero’s Journey

    The basis of many, many stories is Joseph Campbell’s Hero’s Journey. It’s the idea that we have a hero (the main character) go through some life-altering adventure, with the help of a guide. The hero experiences a trial that eventually leads to growth.

    We see this format all the time: Star WarsHarry Potter, and Lord of the Rings are commonly cited.

    But they don’t have to be epics. 30 Rock is a bit more fluid, but you could argue that both Liz Lemon and Jack Donaghy go through their own Hero’s Journey throughout the show — guiding each other to be better versions of themselves.

    Barney Stinson in How I Met Your Mother, while not the main character, goes through considerable character growth from the first to last season.

    This doesn’t just need to be in fiction either. In-fact, one of Nick’s students asked me how to turn non-fiction events into stories.

    It’s something I spoke to Cody Sheehy about on my podcast.

    But there’s another person who’s very good at telling stories based on her own life, and we know her All Too Well.

    Let’s Talk About All Too Well

    If you haven’t listened to the 10 Minute version of Taylor Swift’s All Too Well, I highly recommend it.

    Not only is it a bop, but it tells an incredible story about a several months relationship in, well, 10 minutes.

    She uses her words to paint incredible pictures for us to imagine.

    Photo album on the counter, Your cheeks were turning red. You used to be a little kid with glasses in a twin-sized bed. And your mother’s telling stories ’bout you on the tee-ball team…

    …can’t you see this scene in your head? I can picture it perfectly.

    But she also uses similes to convey to use how she and the one she’s talking to treated their clandestine rekindling:

    And there we are again when nobody had to know. You kept me like a secret, but I kept you like an oath

    We immediately know the difference between how she viewed them covertly getting back together, vs. how our subject did.

    Her use of metaphors also powerful convey the emotion she, and we, should be feeling…

    And you call me up again just to break me like a promise. So casually cruel in the name of being honest

    I’m a crumpled up piece of paper lying here, cause I remember it all too well.

    …crushed, wasted, and thrown into a trash bin.

    The truth is, most of this was probably mundane. But she highlights the important bits, and how she felt as a 20-21 year old dating someone seemingly other than her.

    The hook in all of this is the mystery. The song came out in 2012. The 10 minute version in 2023.

    And I read what was basically an investigative article dated this month diving into who the song is about, and why.

    It’s all speculation, and none of it confirmed by any parties who’ve been named. But we love to talk about it.

    Taylor Swift knows how to hook us with a good story.

    Finding the Story and the 3-Act Structure

    So where can you find the story? For Taylor, it’s usually based on her own experience.

    I like to draw from my own experience, as well as lessons from pop culture (if you couldn’t tell by now).

    You can find inspiration anywhere — you just need to make sure it drives home your point.

    Mike recommends getting a long sheet a paper and drawing a timeline of your life on it, where you mark important events on your life.

    Then you can find stories based on what was going on at the time.

    For Nick’s class, I opened with a story about the first time I sought therapy, and the events that lead me to the conclusion I needed help.

    With my interviews, I try to define the interview using the 3-act structure:

    1. The setup, where we introduce our guide — the guest — and have some sort of inciting incident that forces the need to change.
    2. The confrontation, where we create some sort of conflict or tension. This is usually a challenge to the guide’s main point, which we introduced in Act 1.
    3. The resolution, where we confront the conflict, accept the guide’s point of view, and learn how to implement what the guide as taught us.

    Now I know what you’re thinking here — shouldn’t the guest be the hero? It’s their journey, after all.

    No! When you’re creating a podcast, someone else should be the hero.

    Make Your Listener the Hero

    If you want sticky, helpful content, your listener needs to be the hero. Everyone roots for the hero — and believes in them as the approach the end of the story.

    Making your listener the hero empowers them, gets them to believe in themselves, and opens them up to the possibility of a transformation.

    If you have guests, your guest should be the guide. If you don’t, you’re the guide.

    Positioning yourself as the guide does two things:

    1. It makes you the authority on the topic
    2. It helps your listener know, like, and trust you faster

    After all, who doesn’t like Obi-Wan, Dumbledore, and Gandalf?

    You do that focusing the content around the listener and what they need to do to transform.

    In Star Wars, Obi-Wan appears to Luke and tells him to trust in the Force. Obi-Wan doesn’t manipulate the Force for him.

    Dumbledore puts an entire system in place to help Harry do what only Harry can do.

    Gandalf doesn’t deliver the ring to Mordor. He helps Frodo do it.

    Your job, as the podcaster and the guide, is to help your listener.

    You can’t do that unless you make them the hero.

    How Will You Tell Stories in Your Podcast?

    The next time you prep a podcast episode, think about the story you’re telling. What are you, or your guest, guiding the listener towards?

    What conflict will they overcome?

    How will the story resolve?

    Cody Sheehy, in my interview with him, said telling a good story is opening doors in a house, then running through the house and slamming most of them shut.

    How can you help your listeners close the door on the problem they’re having?

    1. Except good interviewers can extract stories from their guests. 
  • The Ghost of Podcast Past (2024 Edition)

    Earlier this month, I had a great idea.

    My 7-year-old has been really into music lately, but she has an iPad, which isn’t very portable. And if I get my way, she won’t have a phone until she’s at least 27. So I thought I’d get her an iPod.

    But to my shock and disbelief, the iPod in all of its forms was discontinued in 2022. I was shocked for 2 reasons:

    1. I consume a lot of tech content, and surely, I learned this fact but forgot it.
    2. The iPod was so good — and feels like a perfect portable companion for kids. Better than an Apple Watch, anyway.

    So alas, I either need to get her some random portable player, or hope she’s cool with connecting her iPad to a bluetooth speaker for a bit longer.

    Last year, I ended Podcast Advent with a theme borrowed from A Christmas Carol, looking at the ghosts of Podcast Past, Present, and Future. I’d like to revisit those topics, this time speaking more generally than I did last year.

    In 2023’s Ghost of Podcast Past article, I did a retrospective on How I Built It — unknowingly making it a bit of a eulogy, as the show changed to Streamlined Solopreneur a few months later.

    This year, I’d like to take a broader view of podcasting’s past.

    What is a “Podcast?”

    If you don’t know, the term “podcast” is a portmanteau of the words “iPod” and “Broadcast.”1

    The name isn’t quite fully aligned with the actual history, though. Podcasts have been distributed via RSS since the early 2000s, with the concept first surfacing in October 2000 — before the iPod even existed.

    Podcasts didn’t get support in iTunes until 2005.

    But as iPods were the most popular portable audio players, a lot of audio was consumed on iPods.

    So the name stuck, after it was (ostensibly) coined by Ben Hammersley in an article he wrote for The Guardian in 2004.

    And since we didn’t have the blazing fast internet we have now (at least in the USA), sending audio files made more sense.

    Heck, YouTube didn’t even exist until 2005.

    Today, of course, statistically 0% of listeners use an iPod to listen to podcasts. The name is a remnant of what podcasts originally were: broadcasts one could listen to on an iPod.

    But this has lead to an ongoing discussion of exactly what a “podcast” is. If we look to the past, we see 3 components:

    1. RSS feeds
    2. iPod + Broadcast
    3. Audio-only

    iPods are out.

    For the sake of the medium, RSS feeds most remain in. Podcasting is where it is because it’s openly distributed — much like blogs.

    But what about that last one — audio-only? Was audio simply a constraint of the time?

    After all, iPods eventually got video. Yet, to my knowledge, there’s no plan to add a video tag for podcasting to RSS feeds.

    There were, and still are, plenty of benefits to audio-only content. Just like there are plenty of benefits to video content.

    The point of the Ghost of Christmas Past in A Christmas Carol is to remind us of what came before; to understand and learn from it.

    It symbolizes self-awareness. In podcasting that self-awareness can help us realize that RSS is important to podcasting’s survival — but it can also remind us that being ardently against video could hurt us in the long run.

    The Past’s Effect on Format and Content.

    Understanding Podcast’s Past could also help us improve the format and content of our show.

    We Used to Not Have to Edit

    It used to be that you could basically just record your thoughts, release them with little to no editing, and get people to listen. There was a big first-mover advantage here because when there’s not a lot to listen to, you listen to what’s available — but you also recommend the same thing to more people.

    The idea of “recording and releasing” was fine because podcast listeners were clamoring for content.

    Now, listeners expect more — and have more options when the quality of a show is low.

    Interviews aren’t the Only Format

    The more recent past has seen a boom in interviews. As technology — mics, recording software, internet connections — got better, interview shows seemed to become the vast majority of podcasts out there.

    When I asked ChatGPT why interviews are so popular for podcasters, it gave me 10 reasons, and some of them were pretty good. But if I had to choose, I’d say these 2 take the cake:

    • Perceived Growth
    • Easier to Create

    For a long time, podcasters figured if they have guests on, the guests will share the interview. But that didn’t pan out.

    They also felt that with a guest, you don’t have to prepare as much. You could just have (shudder) a casual conversation.

    And you could…for a while. But things change.

    Combine interviews with record and release, and you get a lot of subpar content. Meandering interviews of varying audio levels, interruptions by barking dogs, and no clear purpose to the content.

    When you have millions (by some estimates, 178 million) of podcast episodes published in a year, a lot of it will probably be subpar. But that also means making some basic changes will help you stand out.

    Can Reviewing the Past Make for a Better Future?

    Just because we’ve done something for a long time, doesn’t mean it’s right, or that we should keep doing it.

    I’m not saying interviews are the wrong format. I’ll still have some in 2025. Likewise, I’m not saying audio-only is bad. But video might help2.

    If you look to the past to see why things are the way they are, you may come to the conclusion it’s time for a change.

    And that change could save your podcast in the future.

    1. As far as I can tell, this is not apocryphal.
    2. I am, however, saying record and release is bad. Edit your show.
  • Are You Telling Enough Stories?

    Over the weekend, I was arguing with my 6 year old daughter about why Friday by Rebecca Black is an objectively bad song.

    Nothing against Rebecca Black; she didn’t write or produce it. It was a fun birthday gift/vanity project for a 13 year old. It’s really ARK Music Factory’s fault that it’s a terrible song.

    I built my case using my daughter’s favorite artist, Taylor Swift.

    I’d play clips of Swift’s first major hit, Love Story, explaining why this is a good song, then comparing it to Friday.

    Adobe Firefly’s rendering of a musical battle bwteen two female singers.

    Spoiler alert: I lost, because I was trying to apply logic where logic cannot live.

    Great Songs Tell a Story

    But what makes most of Taylor Swift’s songs great (née, most great songs great) is they tell a story.

    In Love Story, which riffs off of perhaps the most popular love story of all time, Romeo and Juliet, we feel the sadness, tension, and pain that she feels when she believes the guy she loves isn’t coming for her.

    Then we feel the jubilation she feels when he gets down on one knee.

    There’s a build up of them meeting, then the conflict of her dad saying “stay away,” before the crescendo of her about to give up. And of-course, the satisfying conclusion where they end up together.

    Compare that with Friday, which is basically just a list of facts. There’s no emotional connection.

    No tension.

    Not even a conclusion. We’re still in the same spot, relative to the weekend, at the end of the song as we are in the beginning.

    Don’t Make the Same Mistake with Podcasting

    Why is this important?

    Because you might be making the same mistake when podcasting.

    If you’re just rattling off facts, no matter how correct they are (if today is Friday, yesterday was indeed Thursday), you’re not going to connect with the audience.

    For that, you need to tell stories.

    Instead of just telling people “who you are and what you do,” tell a painful story that lead to the transformation into who you are and why you do what you do.

    It gives people something to connect to.

    Instead of telling people a list of 3 things they can do to write better, talk about a time writing saved you career or landed you a gig — and then what it was that was great about your writing, and then how they can apply it.

    When you case lessons in stories, they stick better. The audience remembers them, and they remember you.

    That’s why if you’re not telling stories, you’re missing opportunities. Opportunities you have as a host to grow your podcast and connect with your listeners.

    Opportunities as a guest to win over new audiences, and bring them into your world.

    Because let’s face it: if you don’t write your own stories, someone else will write them for you.

  • Workflow Recommendation: American History Tellers

    A recent favorite podcast of mine is American History Tellers from Wondery. After finding History Daily back in April, I followed host Lindsay Graham’s work more closely — I was already a fan of him from American Elections: Wicked Game and 18651.

    One of the great things History Daily does is a “Saturday Matinee” episode, where they publish a full episode of another podcast. And in October of this year, he used that slot to promote the latest American History Tellers series on the Salem Witch Trials.

    But while I strongly recommend podcast swaps, that’s not the workflow recommendation I have.

    See, while listening to American History Tellers, which does 4-6 episodes on a single topic, I had a feeling of deja vu at times.

    The things I was hearing on American History Tellers, I heard on History Daily.

    And that’s the workflow: repurpose content when you can.

    All of Graham’s shows are deeply researched and scripted by a fantastic team of people. That means they have a ton of raw material that they can mold however they’d like.

    American History Tellers goes deep into the stories and covers it from all aspects, hiring voice actors and putting you in the story. Each episode is around 40 minutes long — so there’s lots of content for each topic/series.

    History Daily takes one aspect of an event from that day in history and gives you context around it. Each episode is about 15 minutes long. It’s easy to see how researchers for American History Tellers might take what they learn, extract it, and turn it into a shorter episode for History Daily…or vise versa.

    Perhaps while researching things that happen on specific dates, they come across something interesting and look into if there’s more of a story there.

    But your big takeaway: look for places where you can reuse what you create.

    Oh…and listen to American History Tellers too.

    Slight Clarification here: I’ve since learned that as American History Tellers is owned/managed by Wondery, and History Daily is owned/managed by Airship/Noiser, these two shows don’t actually share any content resources. I’d still encourage you to think about how you can use the work you do in one area for your podcast, though!

    1. Can you tell I’m a fan of American history?
  • Why You Should Write a Book if You Have a Podcast

    This article is brought to you in partnership with Lulu.

    One of my favorite books from my college reading list is A Confederacy of Dunces. It’s a funny, tragic book that highlights the fact that someone will always think society is on a downward spiral…as well as hypocrisy.

    An interesting fact about the book is that it almost didn’t see the light of day. The author, John Kennedy Toole, died tragically in 1969. A Confederacy of Dunces wasn’t published until 1980, thanks to work from another writer — Walker Percy — and Toole’s mother, Thelma.

    A Confederacy of Dunces went on to win a Pulitzer Prize.

    I regularly think about all the incomplete and unpublished works out there — from authors and would be authors who didn’t, or couldn’t, get their books on the shelves.

    Then I think about how easy publishing and distributing a book is today. And while the writing is still the hard part, that can be easier too.

    Especially if you have a podcast.

    What Podcasting has to do with Writing a Book

    As someone who’s written 5 books over the last 12 years, I can tell you my process for each of them has looks more or less the same:

    1. Pick a topic I know very well — something I’m an expert in. Do some research to see what other books exist on that topic.
    2. Create a mind map or outline of everything I want to include in the book. Do some research to make sure I didn’t miss anything (or at least anything I feel should be included).
    3. Organize that mind map/outline into chapters in an order than makes sense for the reader. Do research on how these topics get presented from other experts in the field.
    4. Write each chapter, while (you guessed it), doing research to make sure I’m representing each topic accurately.
    5. Adjust each chapter once I get them back from edit, once again consulting my old friend research, as I make those changes to ensure accuracy and consistency.

    As you can see, there’s a lot of research involved. This is true whether you’re investigating a new topic, or you’re an expert on the topic. Good authors do research to make sure they’re presenting accurate, up-to-date information for their readers.

    This is also true if you have a podcast (at least a good one), right? You’re selecting topics and presenting them in a way that’s easy to consume for the listener.

    If you have guests, you’re researching those guests and asking them good questions as a proxy for your listeners, who may not have the same access to the guests that you do.

    If you have a solo show, then you’re creating outlines, and possibly scripts, on topics you know well, while doing a bit of research to ensure accuracy.

    And for many podcasters, once the episode is published, that’s the end.

    But it doesn’t have to be.

    A Quick Note on Using AI in Your Book Writing Process

    Before I get to the main event, I do want to touch on a topic that you may have already thought this article would be about: repurposing with AI.

    I am not talking about that.

    While repurposing is all the rage these days, I have strong feelings that you can’t just use AI to repurpose spoken words into a book. To put it as plainly as possible:

    Writing a book isn’t just organizing your thoughts.

    Full Stop.

    Writing a book is everything I mentioned above — creating a structure that lends itself to teaching. It’s not just rearranged word vomit.

    What you CAN use AI for is pulling out the interesting ideas from your podcast, surfacing things you may have forgotten about, and yes — even organizing episodes or concepts to better fit in with your outline.

    This is especially helpful if you have a deep catalog (my show, Streamlined Solopreneur, has over 400 episodes). But this makes AI your research assistant, not the author of the book.

    OK — with that out of the way, let’s get to it. How can you use your podcast to write a book?

    What Type of Podcasts are Perfect for Writing Books?

    One of the most important building blocks for a successful podcast is having a clear mission statement — understanding who you’re talking to, what problem they have, and how you help them solve that problem.

    If you have that, you can use your podcast to write a book because you should have a common theme throughout your show and episodes.

    In-fact, this, above all else, is the main driver for your book — the format largely doesn’t matter.

    If you have a solo show, wonderful. Your book can draw on the episodes you’ve crafted, covering your show’s topic (and mission) in-depth. You can likely derive both big ideas, and implementation details from your episodes.

    If you have an interview show, great! You have lots and lots of case studies and perspectives to pull from. Your job will be to weave them together into a cohesive journey for your reader, giving them stops along the way to learn from more experts than just you.

    And if your show is more news or current events based, that’s fine too! You can use all the time you’ve spent researching and opining to create an anthology of important history and facts for your readers.

    But the show isn’t necessarily providing the words. It provides something much more crucial.

    Why You Should Write a Book Based on Your Podcast

    As I mentioned earlier, when writing a book, you must do research at every step of the process, from ideation, to final draft.

    But when you have a podcast, it’s like you’ve given yourself a head start of months, or even years. And while it doesn’t feel like wasted work — after all, you did get great content out of the episode — I’m all about working smart, and reusing valuable content, information, and knowledge is perhaps the smartest one can work.

    As you consider great non-fiction books, you may notice a pattern. The author is drawing from their expert experience to craft a narrative.

    Kindra Hall doesn’t just tell you to write good stories. She demonstrates, through her research and experiences with her clients, why good stories are important.

    James Clear doesn’t just tell you habits are essential. He leverages the years of research he’s done on the topic and shows how It’s helped him, and how it can help you too.

    Tiago Forte, Georgiana Laudi &Claire Suellentrop, Walter Isaacson, and Robbie Kellman Baxter have all done the same thing. Research, experience, narrative.

    Your podcast shortcuts this process. Through your content, you’ve been doing the research, talking to experts, leveraging experience, and maybe even experimenting.

    Now it’s time to take all of that, and turn it into a book worth reading.

    How to Approach Writing a Book Based on Your Podcast (the Short Version)

    “Worth reading” is the operative descriptor in that sentence. You can, as many these days do, throw all of your transcripts into a custom GPT, tell it to write a book, and then “iterate” the prompts until you get something you’ve deemed good enough to slap a cover on.

    But that’s not the right approach.

    Instead, you should start your book without combing through your episodes catalog. Start with a topic that stands alone, that you happen to be an expert in. Of-course, you know what your podcast is about, and therefore will pick something that’s in line with your topic.

    But there’s a difference between starting with the topic vs. combing through your episodes to see what’s there.

    It’s like creating the prefect menu for Thanksgiving dinner, then buying ingredients, vs. looking in your fridge to see what you can throw together.

    Once you have your topic, you can create the outline — again, I would encourage you to do this with little to no influence from your podcast. You want to create an organically good book, not some ham-fisted amalgamation of things you happened to talk about over the last 3 (or in my case, 8) years.

    It’s after you have your outline that you can really start to leverage your show’s episode catalog. Feed everything into AI if you’d like, or do a good old-fashioned site search and look for episodes to support your outline. You’ll want to look for:

    1. Times you or your guest explicitly talk about the points in the outline
    2. Supplemental stories to drive your points home
    3. Actionable advice based on the points in the outline

    You can use whatever tool you’d like for this (I’ve switched over the years, but Ulysses, Notion, and Obsidian are great research tools), but grab excepts, links and summaries from your episode catalog.

    These pieces can serve as your primary research while you write a brand-new book, supplemented by your podcast.

    Your Book is the Dividends on Your Podcast’s Time Investment

    If I haven’t made it explicitly clear at this point, let me state it more plainly:

    You’ve invested a ton of time into your podcast’s content. Your book can leverage that time investment but using your podcast as the primary research for it.

    Because, let’s face it: making money with a podcast can be really hard — and I’m saying this as someone who’s successfully made money with multiple podcasts. Writing a book is also really hard — you need a good, validated idea and enough time to do the research and actually write the dang thing.

    If you write a book based on your podcast, all of those things get easier:

    1. You’ve validated your idea already, assuming your podcast has listeners.
    2. You’ve put in a ton of time over months and years, which you can use as research.
    3. You can sell the book based on your podcast, which generates income;

    I would never say writing a book worth reading is easy (it’s not), but your podcast gives you a considerable advantage in the writing and research process.

    With it, you should be able to write a complete and published work that sees the light of day!

    Brought to You by Lulu

    Now, writing the book is one thing. But distributing it — that’s a whole-other complicated story. As someone who’s self-published, and been traditionally published, I can tell you that it adds an entirely different level of complexity to the process.

    I know authors who’ve written the entire book, then faltered once they go to this part.

    That’s why I’ve partnered with Lulu.

    With Lulu, you can sell books directly to your audience without any trips to the post office. Their e-commerce integrations combine the ease of print-on-demand with the benefits of direct sales. I wish I had this when I wrote my last self-published book.

    Oh, and the best part — you know WHO is buying your book. I wish I had this with my current, traditionally published book.

    You really do get the best of both worlds with Lulu.

    Learn how you can publish your book — you know, the one based on your podcast — for free today.

    Check out Lulu.com

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